Hello everyone,
please don't add East German nationalities to players. I try to get rid of them since months. There was a country - I was born in it too - called East Germany of course but the inhabitants were all Germans. The most striking argument is that the players who lived or where born in West Germany (with a few exceptions which will be changed too) in this database are "only" Germans too.
Thanks a lot, Matthias
(East) German players
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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klausi
- Posts: 182
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
In deed a serious question. "were all Germans" is the political or ethnical view of things. But we consider here view of football. So as there was an own federation for East Germany players get the nationality East German. To consider West Germans (before 1990) simply as Germans is not really satisfactory, but a kind of a practical way. West German players never changed federation nor citizenship.
Last edited by klausi on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Hello,
as the Bundesrepublik (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsb%C3%BCrgerschaft_der_DDR) never acknowledged an East German citizenship East Germans never had to change citizenship before 1989/90 when they defected and after 1990 - they just got a new IC card and/or passport.
What's with players who played for East German clubs before February 20, 1967 when the East German citizenship was introduced?
What's with players who played around the landmark years 1945 and 1990? Should they all get double citizenship/nationality?
It's also hard for me to consider a player like Heinz Funke (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=201702) who was born when Wilhelm II still ruled as an (all) East German after Kaiserreich, Weimarer Republik and Nazizeit.
There's also a pracitcal problem in the database. There a only three pages left in the advanced search function for East Germany nationality and only one for West Germany. On the other hand there would be thousands of players to change with a dual nationality of East Germany & Germany and West Germany & Germany who played around the landmark years 1945 and 1990 (and all Germans to West Germans and East Germans respectively inbetween). I think it's enough that you can see already from the clubs (or even national teams) the specific player appeared for in which league system he was involved.
As you can see in the Andreas Thoms profile (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=20536) I am definitely for a diversion between East and West German honours or German ones since the 1991/92 season.
With the country of birth label I am also for a diversion between East Germany and West Germany until a birth date before October 3, 1990. But what happens to players who where born after May 8, 1945 and before October 7, 1949 in the Soviet occupied zone and before May 23, 1949 in the "Trizonia"?
I am also for a strict diversion for the league sytems and clubs. For example I changed all third levels (Landesliga) of the 1990/91 season from Germany where they are included to East Germany (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=national_countryCmpSeasonList&levelID=3&nationID=402) because some of the teams appeared in the same cups (DFV-Pokal, Landespokal) as the Oberliga, Liga and Bezirksliga teams. And I added one (often same named) club ([url]"http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=32804"[/url] + [url="http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=32804"]http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=20682[/url]) on each side of the summer of 1991 when the two systems were merged into one.
Kind regards, Matthias
PS Other nations are also affected as well: Is a player who played in the 1980ies and 199ies for a Moscuvite club in his home town a Russian or a Soviet or both?
as the Bundesrepublik (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsb%C3%BCrgerschaft_der_DDR) never acknowledged an East German citizenship East Germans never had to change citizenship before 1989/90 when they defected and after 1990 - they just got a new IC card and/or passport.
What's with players who played for East German clubs before February 20, 1967 when the East German citizenship was introduced?
What's with players who played around the landmark years 1945 and 1990? Should they all get double citizenship/nationality?
It's also hard for me to consider a player like Heinz Funke (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=201702) who was born when Wilhelm II still ruled as an (all) East German after Kaiserreich, Weimarer Republik and Nazizeit.
There's also a pracitcal problem in the database. There a only three pages left in the advanced search function for East Germany nationality and only one for West Germany. On the other hand there would be thousands of players to change with a dual nationality of East Germany & Germany and West Germany & Germany who played around the landmark years 1945 and 1990 (and all Germans to West Germans and East Germans respectively inbetween). I think it's enough that you can see already from the clubs (or even national teams) the specific player appeared for in which league system he was involved.
As you can see in the Andreas Thoms profile (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=20536) I am definitely for a diversion between East and West German honours or German ones since the 1991/92 season.
With the country of birth label I am also for a diversion between East Germany and West Germany until a birth date before October 3, 1990. But what happens to players who where born after May 8, 1945 and before October 7, 1949 in the Soviet occupied zone and before May 23, 1949 in the "Trizonia"?
I am also for a strict diversion for the league sytems and clubs. For example I changed all third levels (Landesliga) of the 1990/91 season from Germany where they are included to East Germany (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=national_countryCmpSeasonList&levelID=3&nationID=402) because some of the teams appeared in the same cups (DFV-Pokal, Landespokal) as the Oberliga, Liga and Bezirksliga teams. And I added one (often same named) club ([url]"http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=32804"[/url] + [url="http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=32804"]http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=club_details&clubID=20682[/url]) on each side of the summer of 1991 when the two systems were merged into one.
Kind regards, Matthias
PS Other nations are also affected as well: Is a player who played in the 1980ies and 199ies for a Moscuvite club in his home town a Russian or a Soviet or both?
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Ronald
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Interesting issue FCCZJenaFan!
Why not mark East Germans born in East Germany as East German and German? Now this may not be important but in about 20 years it might be interesting to know if a player was raised in East Germany.
Next to that, how do we cope with former Yugoslavia?
Kind regards Ronald
Why not mark East Germans born in East Germany as East German and German? Now this may not be important but in about 20 years it might be interesting to know if a player was raised in East Germany.
Next to that, how do we cope with former Yugoslavia?
Kind regards Ronald
Last edited by Ronald on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
It's already said above: "There's also a pracitcal problem in the database. There a only three pages left in the advanced search function for East Germany nationality and only one for West Germany. On the other hand there would be thousands of players to change with a dual nationality of East Germany & Germany and West Germany & Germany who played around the landmark years 1945 and 1990 (and all Germans to West Germans and East Germans respectively inbetween). I think it's enough that you can see already from the country of birth and the club(s) (or even the national team) the specific player appeared for in which league system he was involved."
Why reverse something back which is almost completely done to a highly questionable double status again? And will you also mark West Germans born in West Germany as West German and German?
I think when you look at (old) Yugoslavia's most prestigious club side, the 1991 European Champions' Cup winners FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd, you can see the answer in my opinion: there was Darko Pan?ev the Macedonian, Robert Prosine?ki the Croat, Refik Šabanadžovi? the Bosnian, Siniša Mihajlovi? the Serb, Dejan Savi?evi? the Montengrin. As long as a nationality is known who goes deeper than the one of a (former/later) multinational state and reflects a (former/later) independent state we should use it - otherwise Yugoslav (or Soviet in the case of the USSR) will do it for a start of course.
Cheers, Matthias
Why reverse something back which is almost completely done to a highly questionable double status again? And will you also mark West Germans born in West Germany as West German and German?
I think when you look at (old) Yugoslavia's most prestigious club side, the 1991 European Champions' Cup winners FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd, you can see the answer in my opinion: there was Darko Pan?ev the Macedonian, Robert Prosine?ki the Croat, Refik Šabanadžovi? the Bosnian, Siniša Mihajlovi? the Serb, Dejan Savi?evi? the Montengrin. As long as a nationality is known who goes deeper than the one of a (former/later) multinational state and reflects a (former/later) independent state we should use it - otherwise Yugoslav (or Soviet in the case of the USSR) will do it for a start of course.
Cheers, Matthias
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Hello Ronald,
no hurry. I will do the same from time to time and will also update the Oberliga stats from the (long) 1961/62 season which are sometimes missing for players from this time and second level apps which I have for all clubs from 1950/51 until 1973/74.
Kind regards and happy new year, Matthias
no hurry. I will do the same from time to time and will also update the Oberliga stats from the (long) 1961/62 season which are sometimes missing for players from this time and second level apps which I have for all clubs from 1950/51 until 1973/74.
Kind regards and happy new year, Matthias
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Hi everyone,
now when you select players from West Germany in the "Advanced search" only one player remains - it's the Mariën-locked Zenon Ziembicki (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=215290).
Can anyone change the birth country to German (he was born nearly three years before the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany) and the Nationality to German instead of West German? This would be great.
What does the sentence "Polish parents who escaped products Poland ended up to Germany and later to Belgium." (especially the first part in this context) means to you and in which way we can alter it?
Kind regards, Matthias
now when you select players from West Germany in the "Advanced search" only one player remains - it's the Mariën-locked Zenon Ziembicki (http://playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=215290).
Can anyone change the birth country to German (he was born nearly three years before the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany) and the Nationality to German instead of West German? This would be great.
What does the sentence "Polish parents who escaped products Poland ended up to Germany and later to Belgium." (especially the first part in this context) means to you and in which way we can alter it?
Kind regards, Matthias
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
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FCCZJenaFAN
- Posts: 138
- Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 01:00
Hi everyone,
now when you select players from East Germany in the "Advanced search" only page remains - the "project" is moving forward and I also take the chance to check all the remaining players. With the 4 volumes of the DDR-Chronik from the DSFS covering 1949/50 - 1973/74 it's also possible to add second level stats and Leske's Enzyklopädie des DDR-Fußballs gives the one or another hint where to look after club changes.
Cheers and have a nice weekend, Matthias
now when you select players from East Germany in the "Advanced search" only page remains - the "project" is moving forward and I also take the chance to check all the remaining players. With the 4 volumes of the DDR-Chronik from the DSFS covering 1949/50 - 1973/74 it's also possible to add second level stats and Leske's Enzyklopädie des DDR-Fußballs gives the one or another hint where to look after club changes.
Cheers and have a nice weekend, Matthias
Last edited by FCCZJenaFAN on 28 Sep 2011, 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
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